Deep Cycle Batteries

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Marc K
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Deep Cycle Batteries

#1 Post by Marc K » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:52 am

Henpecked wrote:
Tue Sep 11, 2018 12:53 pm
So what is the difference between a marine battery and a UPS battery? I get lots of free used UPS batteries.

Uninterruptible Power Supply. They carry critical electrical loads during power outages and use deep cycle batteries.
Generally, batteries designed for UPS duty are designed to be discharged quickly and deeply, but not very often - compared to batteries for off grid solar that are discharged every night for years on end. You will note that UPS batteries often publish their amp hour ratings based on draining them in 1hr, 2hr or 5hr.

Deep cycle batteries are rated in terms of "how deep, how often, how fast." Keep in mind that UPS batteries are specifically built to be charged right back up when the power turns back on. The typical life cycle of UPS batteries is discharging for short periods, recharging, then sitting on float for days/weeks.

Terminology is often misused/misunderstood, but most often a "Marine Deep Cycle" battery is designed for both cranking and some deep cycling. Even the term "deep cycle" has to be defined. How deep is deep?

To put it in perspective, here are typical ranges of how many times you can deep cycle different types of lead-acid batteries - based on taking them down to 0% remaining in the battery (100% depth discharge)
True deep cycle 400-600 charge/discharge cycles
Marine deep cycle 40-50 charge/discharge cycles
Typical starting battery 20-25 charge/discharge cycles

Of course if you don't drain them down that far, the numbers increase dramatically for all of them. Also note, that the test numbers are performed under controlled conditions per BCI Standards! In the real world, we get less.

An example are Optima and Odyssey Deka - well known AGM batteries which all publish around 500 cycles at 50% and about 150 cycles if take them very deep. True Deep Cycle AGM's like Lifeline and Fullriver that are rated for 1,000 to 1,300 at 50% and Deka Gel batteries are in the same range.

And...... there are many, many AGM's on the market that are rated for far fewer charge/discharge cycles.

Battery design has more to do with it than AGM vs Wet vs Gel batteries. When doing a layout for an off grid cabin, I will generally design for 15% to 20% average daily discharge in order to get 3,500 to 4,000 cycles for a 10 year life - using either AGM's or Flooded batteries.

Below is a chart from an AGM battery maker (Fullriver USA) with some of the higher ratings. Others can be half or a quarter of the number of cycles at any given depth of discharge.

Marc

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FLOUNDERPOUNDER225
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#2 Post by FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:08 am

Thanks Marc, good technical data. I knew in generalities about the different Batts as I've been around this stuff my whole life, but never that technical. We have a Battery Shop here at AIMD NAS Pensacola, mostly AGM for our Aircraft Support Equipment, and then the Aircraft Batteries. Bet my folks down there couldn't explain it that deeply LOL!!

Marc
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#3 Post by Marc K » Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 am

Do you guys use Concorde's on the aircraft?
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#4 Post by Henpecked » Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:09 am

Marc. Thanks for the explanation. I’m assuming that since I can get free UPS batteries, that I won’t need Marne batteries. I’ll just replace with another free battery as needed. I just didn’t know the differences.

FlounderPounder. I never worked on the aircraft batteries, but I did fix instruments and flight controls on F-111s and F-16s back in the 90s. Good times.

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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#5 Post by FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:16 am

Marc K wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 am
Do you guys use Concorde's on the aircraft?
Not sure what they use, Air Force T-1 and T-6 and Navy T-45 and T-6 and the Blues, F-18 (not super hornet). I run the Support Equipment Division (AGE for Air Force language)
Marc
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#6 Post by FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:17 am

Henpecked wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:09 am
Marc. Thanks for the explanation. I’m assuming that since I can get free UPS batteries, that I won’t need Marne batteries. I’ll just replace with another free battery as needed. I just didn’t know the differences.

FlounderPounder. I never worked on the aircraft batteries, but I did fix instruments and flight controls on F-111s and F-16s back in the 90s. Good times.
No tail hooks on those LOL!!
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#7 Post by Henpecked » Wed Sep 12, 2018 10:18 am

FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:17 am
Henpecked wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:09 am
Marc. Thanks for the explanation. I’m assuming that since I can get free UPS batteries, that I won’t need Marne batteries. I’ll just replace with another free battery as needed. I just didn’t know the differences.

FlounderPounder. I never worked on the aircraft batteries, but I did fix instruments and flight controls on F-111s and F-16s back in the 90s. Good times.
No tail hooks on those LOL!!
Yes. F-111s had tail hooks. During design phase, they beefed up the landing gear and made a snub nose version (F111-B)for carrier landings and tried to sell it to the Navy. It didn't sell, but all F-111s have a tail hook and that operated on 5000 psi pneumatics and the heavier landing gear. They were only used during wet weather or hot brakes situations as needed. The F-111 cockpit separated from the jet on ejection and became a life raft. The control stick worked as a bilge pump to pump water out of the cockpit. It was ahead of it's time.

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I seem to remember F-16s having a tail hook as well, but don't quote me on that. I was a weekend warrior when working on those and they didn't break enough to learn much.

Edit: Found it.

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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#8 Post by FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 » Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:16 am

Guess that was an assumption on my part, never been around air force birds, except the one time a few years back a B-1 was stranded on our ramp, it had been here for a week and the accumulator emptied out, well they couldn't get the APU lit off because it need some very strange power, all Navy aircraft take 115 VAC 400 HZ or 28 VDC, well this B-1 took something like 430 VAC (either 60 or 400 HZ) can't remember. anyway they called on me to see if I could re-strap this monstrous power unit the AF has here on base, turns out I figured it out and they were able to bust off the APU and the get the main engines started. It was Friday, and the air crew was scared they weren't going home for the weekend, they were thrilled when I got it figured out. they let me up into the cockpit of that giant lawn dart, pretty cool!!
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#9 Post by Marc K » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:29 pm

FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 11:16 am
........................................................................................................................................................................................................ they let me up into the cockpit of that giant lawn dart, pretty cool!!
Waaaay cool!
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#10 Post by Marc K » Wed Sep 12, 2018 5:31 pm

Henpecked wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 8:09 am
Marc. Thanks for the explanation. I’m assuming that since I can get free UPS batteries, that I won’t need Marne batteries. I’ll just replace with another free battery as needed. I just didn’t know the differences.

.......................................................................
You bet! Who cares how many cycles they last :lol3
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#11 Post by Marc K » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:04 pm

FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:16 am
Marc K wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 am
Do you guys use Concorde's on the aircraft?
Not sure what they use, Air Force T-1 and T-6 and Navy T-45 and T-6 and the Blues, F-18 (not super hornet). I run the Support Equipment Division (AGE for Air Force language)
Marc
Concorde's are standard on many platforms including AV-8B,130, CH-47, CH-53, EA-6B, F/A-18, F-117A, KC-135, UH-60, V-22's and more.
It is my opinion very few manufacturers build AGM's as good as theirs.
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#12 Post by Henpecked » Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:14 pm

FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:16 am
Marc K wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 am
Do you guys use Concorde's on the aircraft?
Not sure what they use, Air Force T-1 and T-6 and Navy T-45 and T-6 and the Blues, F-18 (not super hornet). I run the Support Equipment Division (AGE for Air Force language)
Marc
My kid is doing AGE in Wichita KS. He just earned his slot for SSGT.

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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#13 Post by FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 » Thu Sep 13, 2018 9:14 am

Henpecked wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 6:14 pm
FLOUNDERPOUNDER225 wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 9:16 am
Marc K wrote:
Wed Sep 12, 2018 7:10 am
Do you guys use Concorde's on the aircraft?
Not sure what they use, Air Force T-1 and T-6 and Navy T-45 and T-6 and the Blues, F-18 (not super hornet). I run the Support Equipment Division (AGE for Air Force language)
Marc
My kid is doing AGE in Wichita KS. He just earned his slot for SSGT.
Went there in 1994 ( Can't remember if there was 1 stoplight or none) to be part of an inter-service training review and study the feasibility of combining basic Aircraft Support Equipment training in one facility, where all the services would go for initial skills training, then off to their own tech schools for specific training. Sounded good, the senior enlisted personnel from the services, we made a good working model, submitted our POA & M and never heard another thing about it.
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Re: Deep Cycle Batteries

#14 Post by Marc K » Thu Sep 13, 2018 5:58 pm

And we haven't even discussed charging rates yet........ :biggrin2
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