First Post - New Pontoon with List

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Kraftei
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#16 Post by Kraftei » Sun Jan 31, 2021 11:44 am

Bamaman wrote:
Sun Jan 31, 2021 3:33 am

Have you had the boat on a trailer? I would first go to a certified scale and weigh the trailer side to side. Then put the boat on the trailer and see what the actual weight difference is.

Then go directly to the big Forest River, Inc. with the information. If Forest River has such financial stability, they can either repurchase the boat or trade you into a model that suits your needs and is better balanced.
The pontoon has been with the Dealer for the last 4 months, I am unable to do any further checks myself. The Dealer said they did weight checks and it is approx 20-40 pounds heavier on the port side. When I contacted Berkshire (initially) their warranty tech said this particular floor plan is approx 200 pounds heavier on the port side. He was convinced that the starboard pontoon had water in it. Basically the manufacturer would do nothing until the Dealer confirmed there was no water in the starboard pontoon. My checks, video etc. not good enough. The Dealer has confirmed that the pontoon has no water in the starboard pontoon. My last conversation with the warranty tech, he now says the pontoon is 160-180 pounds heavier on the starboard side, suggested ballast. I told him that was not possible, when I walked over to the port side, I still had the list. I don't have exact numbers but I suspect a minimum of 600 pounds to balance the boat with a driver. I am not going to carry that much ballast, not going to happen! He also suggested that tritoons are very sensitive to weight and this is normal, that's impossible, there is not a single tritoon at my Marina with a list. I witnessed a pontoon leave my Marina so overloaded the back of the pontoons were under water, still no list. The tech then suggested more measuring, the boat has been measured by a 1/2 dozen people. I had a finishing carpenter, a fabricator, myself, the Dealer, nothing of significance comes up. I have never owned a boat with a list, even with a driver. The only boats I have witnessed with a list had serious issues or a serious weight imbalance, not a couple hundred pounds !

100%

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steve1313
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#17 Post by steve1313 » Mon Feb 01, 2021 4:40 am

Clearly (and sadly) you've been ineffecctive in getting a resolution up to this point. As much as I hate to say it, it's probably time to start spending money and hire an attorney who can work on your behalf. Don't expect a quick resolution, but it's the only one that I can think of. He can get your state consumer protection agency involved and take advantage of any other legal options, including filing a suit.

If you don't already have documentaiton of every phone call, conversation, email, etc. with the dealer, the manufactuer and anybody else who's looked at, worked on, or otherwise been involved in the process, start carefully and fully documenting everything going forward. Good luck!
Steve
"Serendipity" - 2017 Sweetwater 2286 WB Tritoon w/ 150HP Yamaha
Slipped at Lake Anna, Virginia
Primary Residence: Richmond, Virgina
Lake House: Lake Anna, Virginia

BobL
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#18 Post by BobL » Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:56 am

Years ago, my wife was having some issues with her new Audi. I was experiencing what you are going through (dealer trying to do what they could but they were not getting a lot of cooperation from the regional Audi guys). I did some research and was able to get the name and phone number of the VP of North American sales. I was able to sweet talk his Executive Secretary and she became real helpful - I never spoke with the VP nor did I ask to because this lady knew how to get things done. A few weeks later (after months of issues with the dealer and his Audi reps doing the blame game), my wife was driving a brand new Audi. Even my dealer (which were doing everything they could) was impressed.

Given that, I would start composing a lengthy letter/email explaining exactly what happened, who you spoke to, what they said, what has been done by the dealer, etc.

Next, I would ask the dealer to provide you with contact info (email addresses/phone numbers/physical addresses for anyone they have related to the boat side of Forest River. I know that your dealer no longer sells that line but that could be to your advantage as they may be willing to share contact info. Start with the regional sales rep. Give the regional guy a week to respond with a plan. If that doesn’t work, start quickly moving up the chain.

I would try to use emails when I can so they cant say “I never told him that”. Phones are good but always followup with an email to confirm the conversation.

After spending a few minutes, I found the following:

1-574-389-4600 looks to be the Forest River corporate phone number.

1-574-825-7000 is the boat side customer service number but you probably already have that.

The below is the email address for owners to email (but you probably already have that)
ownerrelations@forestriverinc.com

Peter Liegl is the CEO of Forest River but looks like he came from the RV Industry. I am not sure I would start with putting your problem on the CEO’s radar just yet but when you are ready, maybe try some combination of the following.

p.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter_liegl@forestriverinc.com
pliegl@forestriverinc.com
p.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter@forestriverinc.com

Once you decode the email address format, you can move to other executives.

Looks like Joe Greenlee is/was the CFO.

I also see where Paul Eskritt is an executive as well.

If all else fails, you may have to go the attorney route.
SOLD - 2009 20' Bentley w/4 Stroke 90hp Mercury
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Puto
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#19 Post by Puto » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:31 pm

BobL, this is an EXCELLENT example of how to get it done. Strongly concur re: creating and maintaining the paper trail (emails).

Kraftei
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#20 Post by Kraftei » Mon Feb 01, 2021 12:36 pm

Thank you BobL, lots of good information !

I have not been dealing with Forest River, I have been dealing with Birkshire directly. I just sent a email to owner relations. I'll start there. I also posted a bad review on the Birkshire Facebook page, see if I can get a response. At this point I have nothing to loose !!

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TWB
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#21 Post by TWB » Tue Feb 02, 2021 6:37 am

Gotta throw in agreement with BobL - create a paper trail, even if it's follow-up. "Thanks for talking with me today. As a follow-up, I understand you will......"

I ended up having to sue a guy a few years ago. The first thing the attorney said was, "It's going to be nearly impossible if you don't have anything in writing." I did. I won. Court costs, attorney's fees, everything. Didn't even have to appear for the hearing.

I might also recommend you consider a post in the Manufacturer Reviews thread after whatever resolution. New guys to the forum may well benefit from your experience.

:2cents

-Paul
Paul & Michele
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"Don't waste brain cells over something you can do nothing about." --My Wife

Kraftei
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#22 Post by Kraftei » Sat Feb 27, 2021 10:40 am

A lot has happened since my past post, I will summarize. My bad Facebook review and email received a response. Their response was, my Dealer had dropped the ball and this problem is new to them (mmmm not really). My issue has now taken two paths. Birkshire has asked for numerous measurements from the Dealer and the Dealer had been complying. This turned into a dog and pony show, finally the Dealer asked for warranty payment and Birkshire said they will not pay for diagnostics. The Dealer feels this avenue is hopeless, there was no indication that Birkshire is going to resolve this. The Dealer has offered to trade me up (or across) for approx a 0-8k loss. The new purchase would be at cost. At the end of the day, this seems fair to me, we are both taking a hit and I can get on with my life.

I was contacted by the new Berkshire Dealer, after some phone calls they said Birkshire will take care of everything. I took down my bad Facebook review. They asked me to come in, order a new boat and ship my pontoon to them (7 hours away) they would then work with Birkshire to fix the warranty issue and resell the boat. He said this is a new line for them and I am local so they would like to resolve this issue. I could be a Ambassador for Berkshire. Spoiler: I asked about numbers. They would take my boat on trade at wholesale. He said they would had to make at least 10k on the trade and then deal with the warranty issue. The advantage to me is I will no longer have to deal with this issue. I said this is "ludicrous". This avenue is going to cost me 18k plus full pop on a new boat. The next conversation he said, just bring the boat in and we will figure out the numbers later. He admitted Birkshire has no plans to work with the previous Dealer. I need to get the boat to them for anything further to happen. I said no, I am not shipping the boat 7 hours to have them look at it. I already know Birkshire won't or cant fix it. I need to know the numbers before I do anything. I told him, based on our discussions I would rather work with the previous Dealer. He said give him a week and he will re discuss this with his management.

Based on these quotes from Birkshire I already know where they are going with this, it is normal.

"No boat company will guarantee a boat will sit dead level at rest"

"You seem to understand boats from your past, and I am sure you understand almost all larger boats use ballast tanks to correct for load placement – etc."

"Pontoon boats can definitely be heavier to the starboard side with you take account of the helm, battery, wiring from the helm down the starboard pontoon, and then having only one person on the boat sitting the captain’s chair"

I have been looking at other pontoon boats (since Spring) and I have yet to see a single pontoon with a list. I have never owned a boat with a list. My Dad had a custom boat built and it had a list, he let it go and countered it with fuel, water etc as it was a long distance cruiser. The issue was when he went to sell it... the Buyers do a survey and it always came up as a major flag, it impacted resale value. I have no intention of being in the same position.

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steve1313
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#23 Post by steve1313 » Mon Mar 01, 2021 3:45 am

Wait......... you're boat has a list, and your father's boat had a list???? Clearly it's a genetic issue! LOL. Sorry, I know it's not funny, and you're clearly in a tough spot. I'm not sure where you are, but boating season is getting closer every day and it really doesn't sound like your any closer to a resolution. If I was in your shoes, I'd get legal help and prepare for a season without a boat. Using your boat why all this is going on is just going to give them more of an opportunity to "blame" you.

I still don't understand how you could take delivery of a boat without at least a brief sea trial. I'm not trying to kick you while you're down, just hoping that if other potential boat owners read this they'll realize that not putting the boat in the water and checking it out BEFORE you accept it should be an absolute deak killer.

Good luck in whatever you decide to do, and thanks for keeping us in the loop. We feel your pain!
Steve
"Serendipity" - 2017 Sweetwater 2286 WB Tritoon w/ 150HP Yamaha
Slipped at Lake Anna, Virginia
Primary Residence: Richmond, Virgina
Lake House: Lake Anna, Virginia

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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#24 Post by Steiner » Mon Mar 01, 2021 5:05 am

That second dealer basically should have said "Hey, keep your boat and send us ten grand and everything will be OK."
What a sleaze.


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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#25 Post by Bamaman » Wed Mar 03, 2021 11:38 am

I guess you could just call Warren Buffet personally. He's in Omaha, Nebraska at Berkshire Hathaway.

Upper management in companies just hates it when people go over their heads to the Big Dog.
'12 Bennington 24' SSLX Yamaha 150

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Rick McC.
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#26 Post by Rick McC. » Sun Apr 04, 2021 7:33 pm

BobL wrote:
Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:56 am
Years ago, my wife was having some issues with her new Audi. I was experiencing what you are going through (dealer trying to do what they could but they were not getting a lot of cooperation from the regional Audi guys). I did some research and was able to get the name and phone number of the VP of North American sales. I was able to sweet talk his Executive Secretary and she became real helpful - I never spoke with the VP nor did I ask to because this lady knew how to get things done. A few weeks later (after months of issues with the dealer and his Audi reps doing the blame game), my wife was driving a brand new Audi. Even my dealer (which were doing everything they could) was impressed.

Given that, I would start composing a lengthy letter/email explaining exactly what happened, who you spoke to, what they said, what has been done by the dealer, etc.

Next, I would ask the dealer to provide you with contact info (email addresses/phone numbers/physical addresses for anyone they have related to the boat side of Forest River. I know that your dealer no longer sells that line but that could be to your advantage as they may be willing to share contact info. Start with the regional sales rep. Give the regional guy a week to respond with a plan. If that doesn’t work, start quickly moving up the chain.

I would try to use emails when I can so they cant say “I never told him that”. Phones are good but always followup with an email to confirm the conversation.

After spending a few minutes, I found the following:

1-574-389-4600 looks to be the Forest River corporate phone number.

1-574-825-7000 is the boat side customer service number but you probably already have that.

The below is the email address for owners to email (but you probably already have that)
ownerrelations@forestriverinc.com

Peter Liegl is the CEO of Forest River but looks like he came from the RV Industry. I am not sure I would start with putting your problem on the CEO’s radar just yet but when you are ready, maybe try some combination of the following.

p.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter_liegl@forestriverinc.com
pliegl@forestriverinc.com
p.liegl@forestriverinc.com
peter@forestriverinc.com

Once you decode the email address format, you can move to other executives.

Looks like Joe Greenlee is/was the CFO.

I also see where Paul Eskritt is an executive as well.

If all else fails, you may have to go the attorney route.
As a retired Ombudsman, I’ll say that this is the best recommendation and information that you’ll ever get for free. Big kudos to BobL!
Rick

Sights are for the unenlightened.

Kraftei
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#27 Post by Kraftei » Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:53 pm

Update:

Spoke to the New Birkshire Dealer again, final response was to ship the boat to them (7 hours) and they will look at it, they would not commit to resolving the list. That was a hard NO. The emails I received from Birkshire indicated they thoughts lists were normal. The boat was at the first Dealer for 7 months for warranty work, nothing was resolved. I am not having the boat sit at the second Dealer for another X number of months. Our summer season is so short I am not missing out. Their whole goal seems to be to push it off until it goes away.

The first Dealer has resold the boat as is and I took a 10k loss. Thats the down side, the upside is I get the new boat at cost. The new pontoon is a Bennington and its a upgrade. The only thing I do not like is the color scheme of black and lime green, not a fan of lime green but I will get used to it. Once everything is settled, I will hammer Berkshire with bad reviews and then call it a day, no point in dwelling on negativity. They are a shitty company, it is what it is !!

*They outplayed me, I took my bad review down from their Facebook page as they said they were going to resolve the issue, they've now changed their settings, no bad reviews allowed. There is no longer anywhere on the Internet to warn people !

100% agree I should have test drove the boat before purchasing, I will take that hit. If I would have test drove I would have seen the list and never bought the boat. I did not know at the time that Birkshire does not water test their boats. Learn from my mistake, its a lot of money to spend with no test drive!!

In reflection, the Berkshire was a nice boat minus the list and the lack of warranty. If you test drove a Birkshire before purchasing and had all warranty issues resolved before taking delivery, I am sure you would be fine. Failing that I would not touch one!

I have a question, my pontoons stained badly and showed corrosion on the rear of the pontoons. The pontoon is parked in a slip all summer. Is there anyway to prevent that from happening with the new boat? Next door to me is have a shop that does metal buffing. I was wondering if I should get them to buff the pontoons before I launch. Maybe they would not be so porous, and the metal polish would offer some protection for awhile.
Last edited by Kraftei on Fri Apr 23, 2021 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kraftei
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#28 Post by Kraftei » Fri Apr 23, 2021 4:31 pm

PS. I spoke to the Dealer and they said the Bennington has polished end caps (on the pontoons), unlike the Birkshire which has rough finish, less likely to corrode.

That said they offer Ceramic Coating of the pontoons, apparently it does help but realistically you may get a summer out of it. I can back that up as I paid major bucks to get a fiberglass boat buffed and coated with ceramic pro marine and it never made the summer. If a boat is moored all summer, maybe the best you can do is slow things down.

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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#29 Post by Motor7 » Sat Apr 24, 2021 5:40 am

Damn that sucks having to eat 10G but I do understand the price of peace of mind and an inbound summer. I know you want some kind of satisfaction, but sometime it is better the drop it and walk away. For your own sanity and finality I would fire off a letter to the owner/ceo telling them what you went through and why you will never buy or recommend their product again.
1987 28' Sun Tracker Party Hut pontoon

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TWB
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Re: First Post - New Pontoon with List

#30 Post by TWB » Mon Apr 26, 2021 5:42 am

Kraftei wrote:
Fri Apr 23, 2021 1:53 pm
Update:

*They outplayed me, I took my bad review down from their Facebook page as they said they were going to resolve the issue, they've now changed their settings, no bad reviews allowed. There is no longer anywhere on the Internet to warn people !
I had a really crappy experience with a trailer dealer/ fabricator in central Florida. Short story is total lack of customer service, lying about what they would do and not do, AND calling my wife a liar. Posted shitty, factual reviews on Yelp, Google, TripAdvisor, and with the BBB. That was 4 years ago and I STILL get notifications that people are reading the reviews and marking them as "helpful." Facebook is big, but not the only avenue.

Sorry for all your problems. I hope you can enjoy your season.

:2cents
Paul & Michele
2003 Landau DX 24' Cruise "Loretta Jane"
2003 Mercury 75hp
My Rebuild: http://pontoonforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=26135

"Don't waste brain cells over something you can do nothing about." --My Wife

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