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battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:49 am
by ROLAND
Hey guys, got a couple of questions pertaining to batteries for your boat... first off, I only have one battery on my boat.... It's the same battery that came with my boat 2 1/2 years ago.... plan on replacing it before next boating season. I was planning to just go to sears and get one of their AGM batteries ( marine grade ). I've got an agm in my car and it's great. However I was reading some boating forums that said do not use agm batteries with Yamaha outboards...even though I can find agm batteries that meet my boat engines requirements ( cca / rc ) they said not to use agm because of the way they charge. Something to do with charging too hot and screwing up the Yamaha's recharging system. Any of you run across this.... secondly, in my owners manual I found the "specs " for the battery I need, but I can't find anything that tells me what " group" my battery falls into.. anyone know? It's for a 75 yamaha four stroke.... and lastly, should I get a starting battery or a dual purpose battery? I guess I could just look at the battery on my boat, but it's currently in the storage place and I won't see it again til the weekend... if you want to recommend what kind / brand of battery you use, would love to hear it... thanks

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:07 am
by crspang
While I'm not certain about your Yamaha, I was recently changing the stator and power pack on a 1998 evinrude 90hp and the service manual clearly stated in bold letters to never use AGM or deep cycle batteries for starting. Turns out that the owner of this 90hp was using a deep cycle battery for starting, he knew better but did it anyway, $800 later and lesson learned.

I have personal experience with a 2008 90hp Mercury that experienced a charging system meltdown also, the owner was trying to charge his starting battery and a deep cycle simultaneously with his Perko switch in the "all" position. $1200 mistake.

Side note, if anyone is using a dual battery system, DO NOT turn the knob on the Perko switch while the motor is running.

CDI Electronics has some valuable info on their website.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:41 am
by Bamby
Roland I also utilize Sears AGM's myself and have been quite satisfied with their performance. As far as Yamaha is concerned I'll point in out in bold in the copy and paste below. As for my use I'm safe on the issue simply because I don't really push my boat with sustained full throttle running...

The Boater's Log Vol 3, No. 6, Battery Tech, Part 1

Boat Batteries – The Technical Details

Although your boat uses a gasoline engine for its primary propulsion, without ample electricity, that outboard is pretty much out of business.

Let’s tackle a fistful of the most common boat battery-related topics. To keep things simple, we’ll discuss a single engine boat; however, the principles are similar for multi-engine installations.

Boat Battery Applications and Ratings
On most boats, especially those with lots of demanding electrical equipment (trolling motors, aerated/recirculating livewells, washdown pumps, downriggers, full electronics, powerful sound systems), you’ll need multiple batteries – a starting battery, and at least one storage battery – or a combination starting/storage battery.

Marine Cranking Battery (Starting Battery)
As the name implies, the cranking battery’s sole purpose is to start the engine.

When you initiate the starting sequence (turn the key, press a button), the starting/cranking battery sends an enormous surge of electricity to the engine’s starting motor. After the outboard is running, the engine’s charging system sends electricity back to the cranking battery to recharge it.

The starting battery expends a great deal of energy for a few seconds at a time. A cranking battery is exceptionally strong in the short term; however, it doesn’t have an excess of power in reserve, and will fail prematurely if deeply discharged repeatedly.

According to the American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC®), a marine battery must have at least the cold cranking amperage (CCA) required by the engine manufacturer. Cold Cranking Amps is a rating that defines a cranking battery’s ability to start an engine at 0°F (-17.8°C). This can range from about 250 CCA for an electric-start 25 hp kicker to 750 CCA for a 350 hp mega-outboard.

You should find cranking battery specs in the outboard’s owner’s manual – Cold Cranking Amps (CCA), Marine Cranking Amps (MCA) and Reserve Capacity (RC). At least one of these three ratings – CCA, MCA and RC – should be clearly marked on the battery’s label.

Prudence dictates installing a dedicated starting battery connected only to the outboard’s ignition/starting circuit. If all the boat’s electrical gadgets use the starting battery, there is a very strong possibility that you’ll hear a sickening “click” when you try to crank the engine after a long day on the water.

Deep-Cycle/Storage Batteries
A storage battery (or banks of multiple batteries) provides the juice to energize all the boat’s electrical systems – without the engine running. Another name for a storage battery is the “house battery,” because, like in a house, it delivers electricity for the lights, TV, air conditioning and other components. On a fishing boat, you can substitute the term “trolling motor” batteries for “house” batteries.

You’ll want to use deep-cycle batteries for your boat’s non-engine electrical needs. Deep-cycle batteries (or banks of batteries) provide large volumes of power over extended periods of time, can endure extreme discharges – and bounce back as good as new after a recharging session.

A deep-cycle battery has several ratings on its label, but the two you ought to take note of are Amp-Hours (AH) and Reserve Capacity minutes (RC).

Amp-Hours (AH) quantifies the number of amps a new 12 volt battery can deliver at 80°F (27°C) by multiplying the electrical system’s current draw in amps by the time it takes (industry standard is 20 hours) to discharge the battery to 10.5 volts. For example, a battery that can successfully energize a 7 amp load for 20 hours (7 amps x 20 hours = 140 AH) would display a 140 AH rating on its label.

Reserve Capacity (RC) is the number of minutes at 80°F (27°C) that a new, fully charged battery can be discharged under a 25 amp load while maintaining a voltage of at least 10.5 volts.

Dual-Purpose Batteries
What if your boat doesn’t have enough space for more than one battery? Then you may consider a dual-purpose cranking/deep-cycle battery for your boat.

Dual-purpose batteries excel in the engine-starting arena, and have sufficient reserves for low-demand accessories.

Make sure to check out the label to ensure the battery meets your outboard manufacturer’s Cold Cranking Amps specs, as well as the Amp-Hours, to make sure the battery has the intestinal fortitude to feed the electrical requirements of your boat’s nav lights, bilge pump, and electronics.

Marine Battery Construction
Boat batteries are available in three fundamental designs: flooded-cell lead-acid, gel-cell, and Absorbed Glass Mat (AGM).

Flooded-cell lead-acid batteries contain lead plates (and other components), within a battery case filled with an electrolyte solution. These batteries can be maintenance free or fully maintainable (removable caps to check fluid levels). Install flooded-cell batteries upright, to keep the liquid electrolyte in the battery case where it belongs.

Gel-cell and AGM batteries use Valve-Regulated-Lead-Acid (VLRA) technology for safer, more durable electrical storage. VLRA batteries are sealed lead-acid batteries, except for a small one-way valve that allows internal gases to exit the battery housing when/if these gas pressures exceed the manufacturer’s specified levels.

A VRLA (gel-cell/AGM) battery is often called a “recombinant” battery, meaning that the negative plates capture the oxygen emitting from the positive plates. This suppresses hydrogen production at the negative plates, creating water instead, thus keeping the battery well hydrated.

A gel-cell is a lead-acid battery in which the electrolyte solution is suspended in a thick jelly-like mixture contained in a sealed case (with a VRLA valve). Gel-cell batteries are spill-proof and maintenance-free. Due to the way the acid/gel mix functions, these types of batteries can be well suited for deep-discharge applications. The properties of gelled electrolyte that make a gel-cell so desirable are also a potential weakness; a gel-cell battery’s power drops rapidly below 32°F (0°C).

In an AGM battery, absorbent glass-fiber mat separators soak up the electrolyte like a sponge. Encased in a VRLA-valved sealed housing, an AGM battery is maintenance-free and spill-proof; you could conceivably install this battery at any angle, except upside-down. AGM batteries are noteworthy for their consistently high current and power output, even in bitterly cold conditions.

VRLA batteries – AGM and Gel-cell – are particularly sensitive to overcharging; therefore, use a good constant potential, temperature-compensated, voltage-regulated charger.

Never use a constant current charger on VRLA batteries.

Other Battery Thoughts
The final word on what type/size/rating of battery you must use is in your outboard’s owner’s manual – for example, Yamaha Marine Group specifies flooded-cell batteries to avert potential overcharging gel-cell or AGM during extend periods of high-speed engine operation.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 7:58 am
by OK Toon
Roland, you will want to get a MS (Marine Starting) battery instead of a DC (Deep Cycle) battery for your main battery for the motor -- for your Starting Motor.

I have a battery switch (not Perko brand) and I was going to use it to connect my MS and DC batteries so I could charge the DC while running the motor after being at the sandbar all day. But now I'm concerned by crspang's comment about not using a battery switch in the ALL position if you have both a MS and DC battery.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 8:06 am
by curtiscapk
I have had two AGM batteries for 4 years and still going.... One to start one for Accessories. I do not have a switch I just recharge #2 once we are back at the lots.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 3:08 pm
by ROLAND
Hey guys, thanks for the replies.... My intention was just to bite the bullet and lay out the cash for the more expensive AGM battery.... but I'm rethinking that now because of what I've read about the possiblity of the agm and the charging system on the yamaha outboard not being compatible.... so here's another question ( or 2 )

1- can anyone tall me what group battery I should get ( 27, 31, 34 ? )

2- Since I don't run a lot of electronics on my boat, I'm going to take your advice and go with a good "starting " battery.... I believe the manual for my yamaha says minimum cca's is 385 ( may have been 425- don't remember ), and the marine crancking amps minimum is 502.
will it hurt anything if I buy a battery that GREATLY EXCEEEDS those numbers?

3- Recommendations? brand / model..

Again thank you guys for your replies... I appreciate it.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 4:14 pm
by Bryden24shp
According to the VeradoOwners forum, it does no damage to change batteries on the fly or to run on both batteries. I run mine on BOTH quite often. I guess different manufacturers may have different views on this. Not sure about Yamaha. I'ld say, consult the pros on manufacturer forums. Most of the moderators are master techs.

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 6:10 pm
by HandymanHerb
If you don't run a lot of accessories you can get by with a group 27, with most engines switching the perco while running will blow the charging system

Re: battery question

Posted: Tue Jul 16, 2013 9:38 pm
by crspang
http://issuu.com/cdielectronics/docs/cd ... 61/2001100

See page seven of this guide for more info on batteries.

Re: battery question

Posted: Wed Jul 17, 2013 10:22 am
by jrolin1
My yamaha has been perfectly happy with my sears platinum agm. AGM batteries charge virtually the same as regular lead-acid batteries. Gel batteries do not and I would not use them. I have been running AGM's for years with no issues.