Pontoon Boat & Deck Boat Forum

Hi, a couple years back I had a thread going about our (then new) 2009 21' JC Neptoon Tritoon with 2010 Suzuki DF150. I had to prop it, and settled on a PowerTech OFS 3x15.25x18 SS prop. The prop ran very well, gave us pretty much everything we needed. I was happy and that was that.

Then being a typical boater one day I got to thinking, "Geez this setup has a lot of lower end. Wonder if I can translate that into more top end?" So I talked to a local prop guy, 30 yrs in the biz, renowned and revered as one of the best there is. There's about 25 marinas in our lakes area, at least, they all use him. He's good. Fine, I pay credit where credit is due.

He advised that he lab the prop. Said I could expect great results. So he did, and $200 later I had lost just about every advantage that out-of-the-box PowerTech OFS had given me. Prop disaster. OK so he tweaked this and that, back and forth, ultimately he got some of it back, but at the end of the day it's still a net loss. I lost top end (meaning 1-3 MPH depending on conditions), great lift in the chop (bumpier, slower ride on choppy days), and performance falls off faster under load. Ugh. Now the local guy has given up on it. Just as well, I gave up on trying to get him to fix it. Great guy whose name I would not say. I just don't think his racing experience translates well when it comes to tritoons. Maybe that's the best way to say it.

[Now before anyone asks why I didn't just buy a 19P prop, I had one before swapping it for the 18P. The 19P wasn't right, or at least not "as right" as the 18P. 18P at least for the 3 blade PowerTech OFS was THE way to go.]

Wish I had a time machine like Marty McFly so I could go back and stop myself from destroying that beautiful factory prop. The future "me" could run into the welding shop gasping for breath just as the past "me" was handing the prop over to be labbed, screaming "STOP! DON'T DO IT!"

Short of a time machine I am left to solve this, or forever know that every time I drive the boat it's not at it's best. A crappy feeling, if you've been there you know.

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OK so Prop Gods sent me to Leading Edge Props in FL. I am going to send this one to have it re-spec'd it in terms of cup. Rich says he can likely get it back. Great. But all this has got me thinking again, maybe it's time to see what's out there.

Options:

1) I could always just buy the identical prop. Chances are it would be great. But if you know PowerTech then you know, they are not always identical. They are hand finished, so each prop can have its own characteristics. Sometimes indiscernible. Sometimes subtle. Sometimes glaring. PowerTech will stand behind it 100%, they told me as I've discussed this with them and with Ken at Prop Gods - where I buy my props from 2010 into eternity.

2) see what happens with Leading Edge, if they can reset it to where it was. I am guessing no, I think the removal of the metal has affected the prop's physics, and the boat rode better with the slightly thicker leading edge.

3) buy a Mercury prop. I have been leery of Enertias because the diameter is small. Their 18P is a 14.25. I know the Suzukis favor the large diam props. I don't have blowout issues, and don't want any. I want overall good performance and my previous top end back, minimally (which was 38 alone with very light gear and conditions, lightly fueled). I've been told repeatedly, expect 2MPH more with the Enertia. Is that realistic?

Anyone out there have experience with a Suzuki DF150 or up, tritoon, and an Enertia prop?

[I just read today, Mercury has released an Enertia ECO. It's a 16" diam. that supposedly retains all other advantages of the original Enertia BUT also gives 10% mid range fuel economy boost. Bet it's PRICEY. It may be the way to go.]

BTW I've tried to talk myself into the 4 blades, I just can't bite. Top end is important, every few MPH means a lot to me. I know the boat's potential with the factory-stock OFS, it had it all going on so I know that I can get back to that point.

Thanks in advance.

I would wait until Merc releases the Enertia ECO, its supposed to hit the shelves in January. It ought to be a hell of a performer. Like you said, 16" in diameter...17 19 21 and 23 pitch. High powered tritoons like big eared props. Even though the regular Enertia is smaller in diameter, the dynamics of the prop rake make it act like its a bigger diameter. But I really think the ECO will be a tad bit faster on our tritoons. I am about 16% slip with my Enertia. If I can reduce that to 10-12% and keep the same RPM's with the same pitch and 16" diameter. I'll think I'll be happier. I've arrangements to get my hands on one. Hope I can run it before I jackplate the Verado.
You also need to check engine height with every prop change. I'm thinkin that when he tweaked your prop, he destroyed the surfacing characteristic and your dragging your lower unit. That would give it all the crappy characteristics you are explaining. You may be able to save the old prop, by raising your motor, if its running deeper than it used to. First thing I would check.
A few things to ponder, anyway....
Good Luck with it, wish I was closer.... I love propping!

Bryden24shp wrote:I would wait until Merc releases the Enertia ECO, its supposed to hit the shelves in January. It ought to be a hell of a performer. Like you said, 16" in diameter...17 19 21 and 23 pitch. High powered tritoons like big eared props. Even though the regular Enertia is smaller in diameter, the dynamics of the prop rake make it act like its a bigger diameter. But I really think the ECO will be a tad bit faster on our tritoons. I am about 16% slip with my Enertia. If I can reduce that to 10-12% and keep the same RPM's with the same pitch and 16" diameter. I'll think I'll be happier. I've arrangements to get my hands on one. Hope I can run it before I jackplate the Verado.
You also need to check engine height with every prop change. I'm thinkin that when he tweaked your prop, he destroyed the surfacing characteristic and your dragging your lower unit. That would give it all the crappy characteristics you are explaining. You may be able to save the old prop, by raising your motor, if its running deeper than it used to. First thing I would check.
A few things to ponder, anyway....
Good Luck with it, wish I was closer.... I love propping!

Thanks very much for the insight. I wish the ECO was coming in 1" increments, at least offering an 18P as 2" sometimes isn't enough to dial it in. If I'm at 18P right now with the PowerTech 15.25", would 17P be too little prop in a 16"? 19P would almost certainly be too much. But, who knows. Actually the PowerTechs are notorious for running a bit higher pitch than rated. The prop guy put this prop on a 19P block, he seemed to think it was more like 18.5P. Maybe the 19P I had tried was closer to 20P?

Would you go 17P or 19P in my case?

As for the existing prop, essentially what the guy did (as I understand) was to thin the leading edge. He otherwise did not alter the finish of the blade surface AFAIK. It is polished back to a gleam. But when he started tweaking the cup, that's when things got out of hand I think. The boat rode flat, over-revved, then he over-corrected and I lost too many RPMs. Some tip cup helped but the stern rides too low. The trailing edge cup, which was once gradual though pronounced, is now more like a lip than a cup.

I really think I have my finger on the pulse with this boat, I notice every nuance. Reduced stern lift if causing that bumpy ride in the chop and wake pounding is robbing speed. Here's one clue: The boat now rides BEST in a strong headwind. The wind is giving me lift. I know, strakes... this boat has none. But the JC supertoons give incredible lift which I have personally experienced and can attest to, of course in combination with a prop that lifts well helps decrease friction.

I agree with you about it running deeper than it did, but b/c of stern lift loss I believe. As far as raising or lowering the engine, I'm not sure I can get involved with that too much. I've always thought it was pretty much trial & error. I wonder what it would cost to start guessing at that. $100 $200 a pop? My wife would kill me. She already is mad I messed with something that wasn't broken.

I suppose if I go with the Enertia ECO (by April they'll be readily available I have to think) and it doesn't work out, for whatever reason, I can always swap it for a regular Enertia with Prop Gods.

How is the your existing Enertia for lift? If you have strakes, that skews the equation for me. But overall, I've heard the Mirage & Enertia are not great lifting props. Hence, the ECO with its improved bow lift (how about stern lift?) and larger diam.

I have to say that the Enertia gives me more bow lift than the Mirage Plus. The Mirage Plus lifts the stern more, for a flatter running profile. My lower unit runs about 1 to 1 1/2 inches lower in the water with the Enertia. So, a jackplate is really needed to grab all the benefits of running different props. I do have lifting strakes, and man, do they work! My holeshot is a neckbreaker, with either prop. You can't have both stern and bow lift, its always give or take. One or the other.
The first thing you must understand about "boxed" props. The pitch is not always on the money. These props are forged to the pitch, not hand laid on pitch blocks. A 19 out of the box can act like a 15 or a 22, the only true pitched prop is a lab finished prop, where it is actually tweaked from the cast to an actual pitch, then the blades are thinned and balanced. Ken (Prop Gods) will tell you that right of the bat. The factory polishes and spins them for balance so they are vibration free and that's about it.
If I was in your shoes, I would try a 17 pitch, it all depends on where your rev limiter is set.
I may have an ECO coming in about 3 weeks, I'll give it a spin and let you know how it works.
Hoping to have some info on my jackplate by then, too.

Is the JC 21 Neptune a true tritoon or a triple tube? It will make a difference. I was told the true tritoon was a 226.

Drago wrote:Is the JC 21 Neptune a true tritoon or a triple tube? It will make a difference. I was told the true tritoon was a 226.

As far as model yr 2009 goes, it's a Triple Toon. But a couple years ago JC changed their model labeling. Now, what was the Triple Toon is a TriToon (JC owns the trademark to "TriToon"), and the old TriToon (246 etc) is known as the JC Classic. The Sport TriToon setup has the larger center tube. That's available on Neptoon, and other models, but standard on Classic.

So, by today's measure it's a TriToon. By yesterday's standard it's a Triple Toon. Either way the 3 toons are equal dimension.

I do trim the motor up once we're moving but I don't think I could come up much w/o having the prop in wash of the center toon.

The JC dealer told me that's the hole JC advises they put the DF150. Of course that conversation was 2 1/2 yr ago. I may be rusty on details.

Bryden24shp wrote:I have to say that the Enertia gives me more bow lift than the Mirage Plus. The Mirage Plus lifts the stern more, for a flatter running profile. My lower unit runs about 1 to 1 1/2 inches lower in the water with the Enertia. So, a jackplate is really needed to grab all the benefits of running different props. I do have lifting strakes, and man, do they work! My holeshot is a neckbreaker, with either prop. You can't have both stern and bow lift, its always give or take. One or the other.
The first thing you must understand about "boxed" props. The pitch is not always on the money. These props are forged to the pitch, not hand laid on pitch blocks. A 19 out of the box can act like a 15 or a 22, the only true pitched prop is a lab finished prop, where it is actually tweaked from the cast to an actual pitch, then the blades are thinned and balanced. Ken (Prop Gods) will tell you that right of the bat. The factory polishes and spins them for balance so they are vibration free and that's about it.
If I was in your shoes, I would try a 17 pitch, it all depends on where your rev limiter is set.
I may have an ECO coming in about 3 weeks, I'll give it a spin and let you know how it works.
Hoping to have some info on my jackplate by then, too.

Hi and thanks for all the great info & insight. For sure I want to hear about the ECO, I am leaning that way but wouldn't buy w/o hearing some reports.

I did speak with Ken at Prop Gods (more than once), Rich Junker at Leading Edge (he does all of Ken's prop work), and Marcus at PowerTech (he's the guy Ken sends everyone to at PT).

Let me know if you think I have any of this wrong.

Consensus seems that Mercury props are closer to advertised pitch and PowerTech varies more. As I recall Marcus himself said the PowerTech props vary, but he insists their QC standards require they be within 1/2". Don't know about Merc but as I understand it, PowerTech props are hand finished. In any case when I had the 19P and swapped for the 18P, it was textbook - gained 250-300 RPM - as Ken & Marcus said I theoretically should - and the boat carried load much better. So I do have more faith (based on my experience) in PowerTech than some. Now, would another same model/pitch PT prop run identical? Who knows. That's one reason I am looking at Mercury.

Marcus also gave me a fairly technical explanation why labbing is not always right, which I dare not restate here for fear of botching it. In my case he is spot on. in ideal conditions with me alone the boat does OK, not as good as it did with the boxed PT, but like I said as you load it - even just my wife - a noticeable decrease. Also bow lift - it drops off more quickly now. With the Boxed PT I could have 4 adults in moderate-heavy chop and easily hold top speed. No longer the case. I lose speed faster.

I get what you mean about stern vs bow lift. That boxed PT had a better compromise than I now have. Actually truth be told it felt better in both categories. I definitely dont want a flat riding prop, I think that increases friction esp w/o strakes. The ECO promises bow lift, that may get friction down.

FYI My limiter kicks in around 6200-6300. I'd have to try the 17P ECO, 19P would be too much in that prop I think. Hoping the more aggressive rake and larger diam would compensate for the decrease in pitch.

My pontoons are lightly oxidized but clean (boat is pulled after every use). Who knows I may ask my dealer to price the strakes direct from JC in Indiana. I don't think it would be cheap to add but I will at least get a price this winter. JC is only about 180 miles from me I think.

Let me know about the ECO, it sounds like the right blend of characteristics for my boat. ken told me it may be slower top end, with the larger diam, but Mercury seems to imply otherwise in their press release. I am really interested in hearing about it.

Just got off the phone with Mercury, they are still tweaking the ECO for more performance before the release. They believe that on my application, the current Enertia is still the best choice for high powered tri's. So, I guess we will have to wait until the release to get our hands on one. They did agree to allow me to work on a head to head test between the two props and after their review, allow the data to be published in another magazine article... So that's exciting! That will be my 4th!

Bryden24shp wrote:Just got off the phone with Mercury, they are still tweaking the ECO for more performance before the release. They believe that on my application, the current Enertia is still the best choice for high powered tri's. So, I guess we will have to wait until the release to get our hands on one. They did agree to allow me to work on a head to head test between the two props and after their review, allow the data to be published in another magazine article... So that's exciting! That will be my 4th!

Exciting news. Let me know where I can read it.

Ken looked at the press release for the ECO, and suggested it would probably run a bit slower at top end than the standard Enertia but offer better midrange, load carrying, bite with the bigger diameter and blade surface. So it sounds like, what Merc is telling you remains the conventional wisdom. Probably the ECO will be a great prop, but ultimately the laws of physics are the laws of physics. And I don't want to buy a standard Enertia, only to discover it doesn't do so well under load or in the chop. Maybe the ECO's bow lift may give me more benefit than the couple inches of stern lift, and if I can keep the boat from riding flat (which I think, admittedly, it did a bit with the PowerTech) maybe I can reduce friction and gain speed (and all the other suggested benefits). The PT had a bit harder time with a front loaded boat. A clue the bow lift wasn't great? Maybe that's ANY tritoon.

As you said you can't have it both ways. Who knows, I may just wind up buying another PT OFS 3 blade, accept that it's about as close to ideal compromise as I can get, and be done. Who knows, maybe Rich Junker will dial in this labbed PT prop so it's just perfect. That'd be nice.

In any case, a lot depends on what I hear about the ECO in months to come.

Thanks again for sharing your insight, much appreciated.

Actually, they were telling me they believe the ECO may be a tad bit faster on our pontoons because of the larger blades, we may need to pitch down to make up for the extra diameter (3/4" more, in my case). The larger blades = less slip. The less slip at the same or higher rpm's means more speed. Pontoons love big bladed props and high rake for bow lift. When someone builds that perfect prop, its gonna be a big hit!
I hope to get one spun before we go into deep freeze. Otherwise, it will be this spring before I can run it.

Bryden24shp wrote:Actually, they were telling me they believe the ECO may be a tad bit faster on our pontoons because of the larger blades, we may need to pitch down to make up for the extra diameter (3/4" more, in my case). The larger blades = less slip. The less slip at the same or higher rpm's means more speed. Pontoons love big bladed props and high rake for bow lift. When someone builds that perfect prop, its gonna be a big hit!
I hope to get one spun before we go into deep freeze. Otherwise, it will be this spring before I can run it.

Cool. Yes the new Suzukis also want a large diam prop, DF150 and up the stock Suzuki SS prop is 16". I think it may even be made by PowerTech I dont recall.

If what you say is true, then 17P (guessing) would be the logical place to go for me in the ECO as I now run that SS 18P 15.25" 3 blade PowerTech OffShore (OFS).

Can't wait for the report. I'd likely get Rich to work on this prop no matter what, but I'll probably buy the ECO if reports are favorable.

I know I LOVE my powertech propset for my Volvo I/O! Better holeshot, better top end than the stainless VP prop set. It may be because my barge drives like a barge (a FAST barge, but still a barge compared to some of you guys).

Anyone out there get to run an ECO Enertia yet? Look slike MERC decided not to make it in 17P which I'm guessing a lot of pontooners would want.

Just talked to Mercury in Milwaukee, supposedly they are planning to expand the pitch ranges for the ECO mid spring or before summer.

This might help you a little, John. http://www.boattest.com/engine-review/M ... a-ECO_2014 If the 17 will be in a 16" diameter, our boats just might like them! Can't wait to get mine out of storage to try it. The water at the boat ramps is still covered in ice around here! Come on sunshine!!!