(FIXED) 2000 Honda BF 115 won't crank

[sunedog]

Have a 2000 Honda BF 115 on the back of my toon. Ran flawlessly Friday night. Wife tried to take out Saturday morning and said it wouldn't crank. I figured we left the docking lights on overnight and the battery was dead. I was an hour away so a neighbor helped her with a jump start.

Later, the boat wouldn't start even with jumper cables. The two lights on the dash came on but got absolute silence from the motor. No starter engagement noise and no clicking. Had to get towed home in a storm.

I pulled the cowling and checked the three fuses on the port side. Then I checked the 90 amp main fuse. All buzzed good with an ohm meter. When I finished checking the fuses, the boat cranked and ran. So I thought maybe pulling and reinstalling the fuses either re-seated a fuse that wasn't making good contact or cleared some error from some computer memory.

Put it on a charger overnight because the battery was still not fully charged. But it wouldn't crank Sunday morning. The battery was suspect anyway, so I got a new one. Boat still won't crank.

I know I need to see if I have juice at the starter when the key is turned to the start position, but I had trouble getting the inner cover off of the top of the motor. Need to remove it to get access to the starter. A bastard captive nuts just spins and won't release the bolt. Ran out of time yesterday so had to quit.

I'm thinking the problem is either the neutral lock out mechanism or the kill switch. I played with both and am sure it was in neutral and the kill switch connector was attached. Anyone have any other thoughts or have a procedure to test the neutral lock out or kill switch?

[sunedog]

Got the pesky inner cover off of the top of the motor to expose the starter, timing belt, alternator and belt, etc. Found the wires connected to the starter and followed them back to the nearest connector. It was under a different cover on the port side of the motor. I was hoping to find something really simple like a red and black wire to the starter. I need to figure out which wire(s) should be getting 12V when the key is turned to the start position.

Here is the connector with the wires coming from the console. The four wire colors appear to me to be gray, orange, pink with red stripe and a slightly different shade of pink with a blue stripe:


Here is the starter side half of that same connector. Some of the wire colors look different than the other side of the connector. I think they are gray, pink, pink with red stripe and a slightly different shade of pink with a blue stripe:


And here is the wiring diagram for the starter. I can't read the color codes for the wires and they don't seem to match the colors I see going into the connector so I can't figure it out.


And here is the wiring diagram color code chart:


Anyone care to advise which wire(s) should be getting 12V when the key is in the start position?

[sunedog]

One more thing......there are two indicator lights in a panel on the console. One is a check engine light and Honda calls it the PGM-F1 indicator. It lights for about two seconds when you turn the key and then it turns off. I believe that is the normal operation.

The other light has an icon like a battery and Honda calls it the ACG indicator. Mine lights up when you turn the key and stays on the whole time the key is in the start or run positions. I believe that is telling me there is a fault in the charging system. Don't know if that would rule out the neutral lock out or kill switch theories.

[justrfb]

Not sure what the issue could be... I was going to suggest neutral position and or kill switch (kill switch got me on vacation last year... Almost had a heart attack right there and as I was hanging my head in defeat on the railing, I saw my lanyard on the pontoon floor with the kill switch pulled...) I am surprised you are having a problem. Honda "anything" is usually very solid. I hope someone helps you out soon or better, you find it and get back to "tooning"... Good luck.

Sincerely,
Rich

[sunedog]

Thanks, Rich. I'm learning as I go.

Never mind the pics and ponderings above. I towed the boat to the nearest ramp after work tonight and pulled it out. Once I got it back home and could examine the motor from the ground, I realized I had not even been looking at the starter the night before. The starter is tucked in tight and low on the port side of the motor. I don't think you could even see it from the rear entry side of the boat while the boat was in the water, even if you knew where to look.

I spent several hours debugging tonight and will have more updates in the morning.

[sunedog]

OK. I found the actual starter and starter relay. As I understand this (and PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong), the starter relay has an input, an output to the starter and two small "control wires" that tell it when to energize. I verified with the key off, the input has continuous 12V and the output had no voltage.

Then I took the key switch out of the console and determined which wire gets 12V only when the key is in the start position. That should be the one sending the signal to the relay to do its job and send current to the starter. It was a black wire with a white stripe in case you're interested. I traced that wire back to the motor and followed it to the starter relay. When the key is turned to start, I verified I have 12V where this wire enters the relay. So, when the key is turned to start, I believe the relay should energize and send current to the starter. But it doesn't. I get nothing out of the relay when the key is turned.

So I am concluding the starter relay is bad. Do you agree?

Should I, or should I not verify the relay is bad and the starter is good by using a screwdriver to bridge between the input and output of the relay?

I have never done that and am unsure what that potentially could screw up.

Here is a pic with labels indicating where the power comes in to the relay and where I think it is supposed to exit out when the key is in the start position.

[Seon]

... I verified with the key off, the input has continuous 12V and the output had no voltage....

Should I, or should I not verify the relay is bad and the starter is good by using a screwdriver to bridge between the input and output of the relay?[/b]

That's what I would do first before buying a replacement.

[Glide40]

I agree with Seon. I'm no mechanic, but I had to do the same thing on my old lawn mower. You just want to see if it turns over. The mower turned out to be the key switch itself. Good luck.

[jrolin1]

I don't have experience with hondas but all the starter relays I have seen have big wires like where your finger is in the pic. Those little white wires may be a relay for the fuel pump. They don't look big enough to carry the power the starter needs. The ones where your finger is do look big enough and the output (covered by black) looks like it goes to the starter.

[sunedog]

Well, I'm about ready to take it to a pro. Remember -- I have full time 12V through the heavy gauge input to the starter relay. And I have 12V to it through the small gauge (what I'm calling) control wire only when the key is turned. And that is what it is supposed to be like, I think. But I get nothing out of the large gauge wire when the key is turned. I figured the relay was bad.

So I replaced it last night with a brand new OEM one. No change. No crank. No love.

So then I figured it must be the starter. Pulled it off in the rain and dark. Finished about 10:00 and was too tired to bench test it. Stopped at Autozone this morning and we bench tested it. It spun freely. I actually wanted it to be faulty because that would have ended my saga. But no, it works. The guy told me he could not tell if it was spinning with enough power, but at least we could see it spinning.

Since I had already taken the key switch apart and found the wire coming out that gets 12V only when the key was turned, I ruled out neutral safety switch and kill switch. It isn't logical to me to send 12V to the motor and then interrupt it back there if the neutral safety switch or kill switch feel like they need to prevent the motor from running. I'm either wrong there or there is another fault, perhaps in the ECU. Oh well. Probably going to drop it off at a mechanic's place tonight.

[RcgTexas]

Hate to see your trouble, I have one. I cant offer any help but I am following this closely. Please keep us posted.

[Sjp1311]

My guess would be something in the ECU. I don't know Hondas that much, but much like the rest of their engines, there is an ECU. Since everything else was/is fine, that is the one thing that can prevent the engine form firing. I would guess, that the performance before it would not start, was less than normal, and it failed.

I used your floor replacement pics while doing my toon rehab this spring. By the looks of your console prop, trash can, we live relatively close, if you want I could try to help you in anyway, and have free time later this afternoon.

Steve

[Bamby]

Battery cables themselves do sometimes fail usually by corrosion sometimes under the sheathing where it's impossible to see. The engines trim also consumes a bit of power itself, is the motor still trimming as it should or has it slowed like it's also lacking power. I'd check all contact points both neg and positive for cleanness, tightness, and corrosion and attempt to rule out the battery cables as the culprit.

[jrolin1]

Check for voltage drop when you turn the key. A bad battery or connection can give 12 volts until the load hits. I had one that was a bad connection give 12 volts and then 3 volts under load. Bad lug on a cable.

[sunedog]

Got her fixed! Even though my problems began with a dead battery, turns out it was not an electrical issue after all. The degraded shift cable I wrote about in this thread viewtopic.php?f=2&t=21603 failed internally and was not shifting the tranny into neutral. Replaced shift and throttle cables and now I'm back on the water.

Shift cables