Boat costs other than the boat...

[Trainwreck20]

We are in the early stages of looking for a pontoon boat, probably a 24' 150 hp tri-toon of some sort. Other than the cost of the boat, we were wondering about a couple of other cost issues:
- Insurance. I am in the process of checking with out insurance agent, so I will have a ballpark number soon. We are very likely to go with the existing agent, since we have home and auto insurance with them and their rates have been very, very good whenever we compare. OTOH, I need to know about what boat insurance typically runs, and although I am pretty sure they will ask me all the pertinent questions, I would like to know as much as I can myself.
- - The boat will probably be in the 35k range, with ~1/2 financed, probably;
- - We will keep in a commercial slip with a lift and only very rarely trailer;

Questions:
- I am sure the bank will establish the basic insurance needs, but what about liability coverage for people who are on your boat?
- Do most marinas carry some sort of coverage for liability (someone gets on your boat in the slip and gets hurt)? Or what if someone damages your boat in the slip? Is this our insurance or the marina's? Or, case-by-case?
- What options/levels do most people go with?
- How lake dependent is it? We are actually looking at three different lakes (although one is the preferred) that are withing reasonable range, but if there was some huge insurance issue, it could affect the choice.

Financing:
- A (very) quick google seems to indicate that most dealers charge a base interest rate of 6%. I am sure than can vary a lot with credit, special deals, and amount financed, but does that seem to be the starting point?
- Our credit union appears to be starting at 5.5% for similar parameters. Is there any advantage to going with the dealer? I suppose it can be more convenient, but I always have used the CU when doing cars, since the special financing came with strings - you HAD to finance a large amount and/or over a longer period of time. We prefer to pay about 1/2 up front and keep it to 4 or 5 years max. Also, CU payments were simple recurring transfers and keep the money 'in the house' without outside parties getting money transferred to them.

Slips:
- Pretty much all the slips that are available are covered, so we will get covered.
- Assuming a lift is a good way to go. Need to talk to marina to see if/how they can accommodate a pontoon boat, I just have never looked at their lifts for various boats. I have actually never rented a slip, just trailered. I assume that is easy enough?
- I am guessing we will find a cheap place to park the trailer (I think there are lots of places nearby). Any issues with leaving them out in the elements vs. some kind of upgrade to coverage? Since we will be using it rarely, we don't mind getting better storage at a cheaper (more remote) location, if there is any sense to it. Again, my trailer has always had a boat on it when I wasn't in the water, but was stored outside w/o issues.

Maintenance:
- I know the basics of the outboard motors (one reason I am avoiding inboards ) and can do most everything normal myself, but not so much on the pontoon boat itself.
- Any standard maintenance costs that will require me to take it to the dealer or hire someone? If so, what and how often (every x years)? Once we get a boat, I am sure we will be climbing the learning curve. Wife is even more OCD on maintenance, so barring unseen circumstances, this boat will likely be looking and running like new after five years.

All I can think of now. When the 'boat lady' at our insurance office calls back, I may answer a bunch of my own ins. questions.

[robdew]

Wow, where to begin? Remember a boat is a hole in the water into which you throw money.

Towing insurance.
Consumables (oil, gas, cleaners, sunscreen)
Life jackets (non boat owners typically don't own them)
Ski equipment
boat and trailer property taxes
misc equip: skiing flag, dry boxes/bags, first aid kit, rope, anchor, bumpers
fishing poles, tackle, licenses
swimming toys
annual winterization
Trailering setup (hitch, lock, elec hookups)
Wear and tear on tow vehicle (lower mpg, etc)
Park/lake permits for boats (ramp fees) and cars (parking fees)


My boat is older so I don't take it to the dealer for anything, but I take anything dealing with the engine to a pro. I don't want to ever blame myself for being stranded on the lake. I'll change the oil in the lower unit and that is all.

[Bamaman]

Answers to your Questions:
1. A bank will want you to carry physical damage and comprehensive insurance to protect their interests. 100% replacement coverage is available on boat and trailer ($250 deductible), since they're new. I went with $300K liability coverage--all for about $200 per year on $39K @ Progressive. My Waverunner insurance was also with them--multi boat discount.
2. Most marinas will have liability insurance to cover themselves, not you. They look for you to have your own insurance. (Our local marina broke loose last year in storms and a bunch of boats were destroyed when the docks got lodged under a bridge. 3 weeks ago, a tornado picked up 12 boats and the same docks 50' in the air and slammed them down.)
3. I don't think insurance is lake dependent. A good company will ask where the boat will be garaged. A boat left in the water may have more expensive insurance than one kept at home.
4. My dealer was talking 5.99% interest on high FICO scores @ 10% down. Sometimes you will see engine manufacturers' credit arms (Yamaha Credit) offering subvened rates, but you can usually beat'em @ good credit unions.

My credit union was 4.44% through 60 mos., and 4.99% for 72+ mos. Most credit unions in our state are open to the general public, so it may pay to change credit unions for lower rates. The only downside to having all accounts at one finance source is that savings accounts, checking accounts, autos financed and boats financed are also taken as secondary collateral against all loans.

5. If you're storing in a covered slip, you'd need a lift of some kind. These boats last so long if kept out of the weather, dry and out of the water--and a lift is a great investment. You can also often find mini-storage/pole barn structures around lakes as a backup. You'll use the boat more often if kept in marinas, however. If you leave the boat in an marina, take the trailer home--or find a relative with a large yard to stash it in. I plan on removing my trailer tires for the winter and storing them inside.
6. Only maintenance on a pontoon is to keep the seats clean and 303 protectant on the vinyl. And put the mooring cover on it when you leave after the weekend. Changing the lower unit grease, oil and filter @ 100 hrs. usage (or once per year) is a 1/2 hr. job.

That's about it.

[Trainwreck20]

boat and trailer property taxes

Oh, yeah, that is one I need to look into, as well. I think I have most of the others at least subjectively covered .
Update: In Texas, no property tax on boat. Initial sales tax of 6.25% on boat, motor, and trailer. Annual registration fee (16 - 26 foot boats) is currently $53/yr. Which is good, since I have never paid property tax on boat....would mean I was in arrears

Heard back from our insurance - their initial quote on a 'straw-boat' that we made up (about 35k assumed value) for them was just under $500, and included 300k liability, 250 deductible, and covered boat and trailer and gave a discount of about $50/yr with a one time safety course. I will check with Progressive and a few others.

Just an FYI, what that asked for:
Model year
Length of boat
Value of boat
Size of engine
I/O or O engine
Type of hull (flat bottom or other)

As for the trailer, we have no where to keep it at home (nor the boat ), but it looks like about $15 month gets you a fenced storage area (no cover) that does not supply security but does include insurance against theft. Will have to look into it a bit more. Can keep it at my parents, but a bit of a drive if I do (~90 miles); however, they have a good towing vehicle, too...hmm...

[BobG]

I took the BoatUS on-line boating safety course. When I told my insurance agent, she cut $70 a year off the rates.

Check out sites like West Marine or Overtons, for things you never knew you always wanted for your boat.

Oh, and I carry a spare prop - in a bag with a prop wrench and a 2X4 block, and a tube of prop lube - and a pair of needle nose pliars for that little tabbed washer thing that locks everything in place. And yeah, I also carry an extra little tabbed washer thingy. If you have to replace your prop because you're stranded somewhere, you'll really need those other things.

[tms0425]

When talking about insurance make sure you get a good definition of exactly what kind of loss coverage it is. I'm not an insurance expert but for loss coverage they'll use terms like "ACV (actual cash value)", "replacement cost", "stated value", etc. None of these are really standardized terms at all. Rather, you have to look at the specific policy language to get a definition of what that really means. It is different by insurer and even by policy.

Here was my "near miss" experience. I purchased a 21' Checkmate brand new, about $20k, leased a slip annually at a local marina, and maintained the boat in nearly perfect condition, with many custom upgrades, for the 7-8 years to that point. The marina didn't allow lifts, so I pulled it out every 2-3 weeks to clean and wax the bottom (no paint) at home, then dropped it back in. One Saturday I was watching the evening news report that someone backed a boat down the boat ramp into a vacant slip at our marina and a huge fire was underway. Unfortunately it was on fire so this moron thought pulling it into that slip rather than up the ramp was a good idea. As I learned later, it was MY vacant slip, which was directly across from the ramp. The entire dock finger with my 8 neighbors' late model boats burned to the waterline, total loss greater than $250k in boats plus the new floating docks. He was not properly insured (very old boat) and the marina was not liable either. My boat, fortunately, was sitting in our driveway safe and sound.

So, after this I decided to call my agent to ask him what would have happened. My boat, which to find a used one in as nice condition, options, upgrades, etc. was impossible, was worth ~$7-8k ACV. To ME it was worth at least $20k+ because the new Checkmate model was probably $30k by then. At that point I learned about stated value provision since we usually own our boats at least 10 years and have paid for that ever since, if available. If you only keep it a few years and/or beat up the boat it doesn't make sense, but for our situation it was a small price to pay for the security. Just ask them a lot of questions until they speak in plain English, not insurance risk speak.

[Trainwreck20]

Was just in the process of checking with progressive, with what appears to be the same answers (although I did the filling in the blanks) as what I used with our regular insurance. Progressive came out toe $206 in stead of $500. Looking back at their reimbursement options:

Actual Cash Value
Actual Cash Value is available for all boats and PWCs qualifying for Comprehensive and Collision coverages. In the event of a total loss, this coverage pays the lesser of the actual cash value at the time of loss less deductible or the market value you provided for the watercraft. Actual cash value is determined by the market value, age, and condition of the watercraft at the time of the loss. Disappearing Deductibles are optional with Actual Cash Value.

Agreed Value is available on all boats qualifying for Comprehensive and Collision coverages. In the event of a total loss, this coverage pays the agreed value shown on the declarations page regardless of the actual cash value at the time of loss. All losses, whether partial or total, are subject to the applicable deductible. Disappearing Deductibles are included with Agreed Value. Agreed Value is not available on PWCs.

Total Loss Replacement/Purchase Price is available on previously untitled boats up to one (1) model year old. In the event of a total loss, this coverage replaces the insured boat with a new boat that is, to the extent possible, the same make, class, size and type, and which contains comparable equipment. (If the insured chooses not to replace the totaled boat, we will pay the purchase price.) For watercraft over five model years old, we will pay the purchase price as shown on the declarations page. All losses, whether partial or total, are subject to the applicable deductible. Disappearing Deductibles are included with Total Loss Replacement/Purchase Price. Total Loss Replacement/Purchase Price is not available on PWCs.

The ACV and AV were both $5 less than the TLR, but apparently only available on boats you buy new.

[Bamaman]

A lot of people swear by Boat US for insurance. I just used Progressive because I already had the PWC insured with them, and adding another boat was so easy. Sometimes companies that write a bunch of marine insurance just understand boats more than State Farm/Allstate, etc.

You're fortunate to live in low tax Texas (other than property taxes.) The Chicken Fried Steak's also not bad.

Most other states would be hitting you for ad valorem taxes every year. In Alabama, I just paid 2% sales tax on my new boat and a $28 yearly license. We're not a boat title state, however. Many other states also hit you for a yearly trailer license fee, and ad valorem taxes on the trailer. And, they can be quite expensive.

Trailer storage can be tough. I currently have two pontoon boat trailers, two PWC trailers, a Triton bass boat trailer and a Ski Nautique trailer sitting in my yard--most of which are neighbors'.

[BobG]

Was just in the process of checking with progressive, with what appears to be the same answers (although I did the filling in the blanks) as what I used with our regular insurance. Progressive came out toe $206 in stead of $500.

Dang! When I said I saved $70, that was from $240 down to $170 a year!

I LOVE American Family Insurance!!!

[BobG]

Geez, seeing as how we just bought our first boat, let me try to remember...

Tubs to store stuff in.
Dry Bags
extra beach towels
a 4-pack of life-jackets for guests.
A soft-sided cooler - we keep the anchor in this, so it's padded, and doesn't put any more dents in our fence.
Of course, the anchor, and a mess of anchor line.
Cable Cuffs to neaten up all those lines.

A cat 4 (throwable) PFD - required!!!

A boat hook. Really helps when you're trying (poorly) to get to the dock, or another boat.

Sunscreen. Lots of waterproof sunscreen.

Boating Booze Bottles. You can get THOSE from ME!

[dockholiday]

Raising that deductible can make a big diff pretty quick. Also a company that is familiar with boats can sometime be lower. Example years ago when I had the waverunner, I stopped to get a quote (can't remember the company now) she said she had to come out look at it an take photos. When she did come out she wanted to know the hp. When I said 110, I thought she was going to have a heart attack. Most of the majors are pretty much up on boats far as repair cost and current hp's.
Oh regarding the who is responsible, it is better to just assume you are at any location you are boating to be on the safe side.
I don't do it but it would probably be a cost saving to shop insurance ever couple of years. I have bought new several cars over the years over 30k and say the insurance is 1k a year it seem to stay that price even though the car may have depreciated by 15k after a period of time and certainly you loose 2k when you drive it around the block, so if you have replacement cost seem the payment should be lower.
Oh well when I buy I just call our guy and say tack this one on to................
doc

[skudrunner]

I switched my insurance to NBOA, the rates and service are good. I haven't had a claim so can't say how that process goes.
Are you sure you need a trailer. If you are going to keep it in a slip you may be better off having the dealer drop it in and if it needs service have them pick it up. Even if they charge a Pickup fee you save the purchase price, 2500-3000 and the 200 per year to store it. If later on you need a trailer you can always buy one and probably find a used one.
Most slips are at least 10' wide and your boat will be 8.6 so a lift works fine. I wouldn't keep a boat in the water if it was not on a lift. Pontoons don't weigh that much and any lift company will be fine.

[Trainwreck20]

Well, we may take a long, hard look at a trailer when it is all said and done. We would like to be able to move the boat to one of the other lakes when the fancy strikes us (there are 7 lakes in the highland lakes chain, all with pros/cons); however, it is a cost that could be deferred if we decided to. The marinas all have slips a minimum of 24'x10' (most 25'x10') and either include the life in the price, let you rent a lift from them, or let you buy one to install (they buy and sell them used from former slip tenets, or you can buy new). Not sure on what the opportunity cost is for buying later rather than packaging now.

As to the market in general, it has apparently failed to cool off very much. Almost all 2012s are gone - we looked last weekend, and already several of the ones we looked at are now sold - and about 50% (or more) of the first wave of 2013s are already sold. Not finding much bargaining room at the moment. Bennington, in particular, appears pretty set on MSRP or very, very close (little add-on freebies or trade-outs). I think we are going to have to write them off, as least for the moment. Harris sounds a little more up for bargaining, but their stock is quite limited currently. South bay doesn't have a tri-toon locally and all the first orders of 2013 tri-toons are sold, as well. We are going to the Houston area in a couple weeks, so we will look at some dealers on the west side; they have considerably more inventory.

I will say that, whether we end up getting a Sun Tracker or not, it is nice to work with someone who is not on commission and will quite happily give you a price. There is apparently only one XP3 left in Texas, and it is in Katy (just outside Houston) so we will take a look at it while we are down there. Looks like we may be waiting until the Jan. boat show in town and just write-off the end of the season here (which was our plan initially, but we were hoping for a 2012 deal...).

Edit:

You're fortunate to live in low tax Texas (other than property taxes.)

Funny you mention that - there are quite a few individuals that live on their boats out on the lakes, thereby avoiding the property taxes. I am sure that is quite cold in the winter, though. Some even rent slips year-round an live there, although that obviously eats up the savings in taxes....

[Bamaman]

My local boat dealer says 80% of boats sold in his retail market are without trailers--kept in boathouses.

When I bought the Bennington 2 wks. ago, I still bought a new trailer. It's nice to have the option to go to other lakes, and to not worry about using neighbors' trailers with old tires and bearings. We have two 40,000 acre lakes and a 16,000 lake within 10 miles or our lake house. I still plan on trailering the boat 170 miles next month, and coming back by river.

The dealers I was talking to last month were looking for 6% price increases on the 2013 models. They engines they already received were up in price substantially. Locals continue to use their old pontoon boats, and most new boats are I/O's. Nationally, pontoon boats are the fastest growing segment of the market.

I wouldn't begin to pay full list price for any boat. DealerCost.com is not up to date on boat prices, but it gives you an idea to the MSRP markups. I think my Bennington SSLX hull price was about $5K less than list price on a $29K MSRP. If you cannot find what you need locally, you can import a boat from another retail market.

There are a bunch of people in Florida living on boats to avoid property taxes. Lake Lanier (NE Atlanta) also has residents in marinas. Anywhere you go, weather can be a negative factor some times of the year.

[Trainwreck20]

The 24 SSLX with a Yamaha 150 with the performance package/hyd steering lists at right at 41k via the Bennignton site. Mind you, that is definitely a boat we would like, but that is a bit to pricey. Sans the motor, the list is about 26k. Unless I am using their MSRP web tool wrong, which is entirely possible.